Basketball Profits

[kingaling42]

Found this on the RU board & thought it was interesting.. Link to D-1 Basketball Revenue/Expenses/Profit/Profit Margin %

http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/18/news/co ... /index.htm

Big South breakdowns

UNCA
$740,691 Revenue/$506,046 Expenses
31.7% Margin (51st of all schools)

Gardner Webb University
$1,057,516 Revenue/ $759,012 Expenses
28.20% Margin (58th of all schools)

Charleston Southern University
$958,743 Revenue/$788,227 Expenses
17.80% Margin (91st of all programs)

Winthrop University
$1,347,078 Revenue/$1,185,726 Expenses
12.00% Margin

Liberty University 2,655,264/2,655,264/0.00%
Coastal Carolina University 1,218,132/1,218,132 / 0.00%
Radford University 1,124,303 / 1,124,303 / 0.00%
High Point University 1,089,558/ 1,089,558 / 0.00%
Presbyterian College 917,443 / 917,443 / 0.00%
(Note- This is very interesting accounting IMO with these 5 programs- I call BS personally)

Virginia Military Institute 816,925 1,118,969 -302,044 Loss / -37.00%

Don't feel bad Cat's- WCU lost more than just football games- they lost $$ too...
WCU
$575,888 Revenue/$794,876 Expenses ($218,588 Loss)
-38% Margin

[ktrain]

I'm not really surprised about UNCA's profit margin. You save a lot of money when your road game meals are two players splitting a foot-long sub.

[kingaling42]

Ktrain- true to form.. Let me guess- the food choices (i.e. the budget) given to players is coaches fault too..

Personally we ate pizza pretty much until we were absolutely tired of it- or some buffet somewhere.. I forgot how all the other schools in the country were eating filet mignon & grilled shrimp- my bad.. I thought it was funny how while we were provided subs, pizza or whatever- we also got the meal money per diem as well a lot of times.. most guys didn't spend that money on food ktrain.. Otherwise I'm glad you rehashed something that some men's player shared with you..

Men's basketball funds most of the other sports on campus- something's gotta give unless JC & other folks are actually going to raise some serious money (vs just taking credit for the actions of others in a photo op)

[UNCA Alum]

yeah the only time we had six inch subs would be when we were like in between meals or maybe for a light lunch before the actual pre-game meal.

so we would have:

breakfast
subs / chick fil a sandwich
pregame meal (basically like lunch at 3 o'clock)
post game meal (usually each of us got our own pizza)

Maybe it's changed though, who knows.

[ktrain]

Alum, they sure didn't eat like that this past year.

[kingaling42]

Alum- it hasn't changed all that much.. I saw players after EVERY home game with a Pizza Hut box in their hands.. We had small sandwches on those light meal times as well.. While some of the guys need 2-3 foot longs to put on weight- that also has to be balanced by some of the players who are over their ideal playing weight or when the only practice/shoot around time is in between meals.. The team ate at a few steakhouses this past year as well, but ktrain knew that too..

ktrain just likes to stir the pot as usual, but like anything heard second or third hand- the story changes and embellishment tends to occur.. I'm 12 years removed now but I never felt slighted by a FREE breakfast/lunch/dinner when I did play.. maybe I should cry/whine about that or perhaps folks could be just a bit tougher about how terribly bad they have it nowadays eating a 6" sub.. I tend to think that's representative of some of our player's problem.. Play through it, real life is much harder than being catered to for 4 years while in college..

[ktrain]

How can you possibly expect first-rate results when you feed the players second-rate food like that? Just because you ate like crap "in your day" doesn't mean these guys should. After all King, you didn't need much energy cheering from the bench.

[kingaling42]

Are you seriously going to use the expenditures equals results argument?? You can't be serious ktrain- LU spent more than 5 times the amount UNCA did & for what?? Nice try- but if you can't make a point other than your second hand information it figures you'd relegate yourself to personal attacks of which you think you know me- I also played behind Josh Pittman & as a team we all ate the same "crappy" meals, he was only the 2 time Player of the Year and has been inducted in several HOF's- you were saying??

My offer is still open if you'd like to meet sometime if you'd like to talk some more.. I thought you'd leave when your boyfriend graduated anyways- why are you still lurking around here

[ktrain]

King, I'm not using an expenditures equals results argument. I'm just saying that the players shouldn't be fed crap. It's irrelevant that a walk-on like you didn't feel slighted by a free meal.

[kingaling42]

I would avoid your previous argument too if I were you ktrain- you have no way to explain how Pittman performed at such a high level on such poor nutrition of fast food (at times) or small portions (rarely).. Since you've never been to a pregame meal I understand it bothers you to not know things first hand but somehow you really need to deal with that & not hate me for my involvement with UNCA the last 17 years... It's a wonder we've put any banners up in the JC- it's a good thing we ate well in 2003.. Have fun trying to belittle me & go ahead & get another little quip/comment in- I'm sure you will, just as I'm sure you'll never talk to me this way to my face..

[ktrain]

Hate you for your involvement with UNCA for 17 years???? Are you kidding? It's more like I feel sorry for you. You really need to get out of that rinky-dink bubble and work with a program that actually knows what it's doing.

[UNCA Alum]

k-train - King was a little more involved in the basketball program during his time at UNCA so it makes sense that he would stay involved and interested in the program afterwards. If you want to be involved in a better program, go for it. Nobody is stopping you.

And if the players really are really blaming their on the court performance on pregame meals then I really just don't know what to say. I'd rather have them blaming Coach B. I know they read this board, so I guess I'll just start telling them to take a little more responsibility for their own actions and stop trying to deflect it elsewhere. Act like you are older than 15yrs old. In five years you will realize that it is an idiotic excuse so just go ahead and get a head start on it now.

I wonder how we won any games at all with that locker room we used to have... and man King's teams even won some games when all the bleachers were wooden. Miraculous!!

[ktrain]

Alum, the players aren't using the chintzy meals as an excuse. I'm just pointing it out as another aspect of the ludicrously second-rate way things are done there.

I'm not "involved" in the UNCA program, nor do I wish to be. My involvement is with what is arguably the best high school program in the country where, unlike your school, the coach not only wins championships, but he also develops his players, both as athletes and as human beings. Coach B and his assistants couldn't get a job here.

[kingaling42]

Harry, er I mean ktrain... Being a basketball manager at St. Anthony's is somewhat "involved".. but I'm not sure it provides much credibility with things at UNCA, whether you like the recounted stories of others you know or not..

I'd suggest you take heed of the lessons the Felician Sisters & Bob Hurley have modeled and you just concentrate your efforts on making the Friars the best that they can be.. Mad respect to Hurley but it's no secret that when he leaves that program risks pretty much everything- you might want to concentrate on the future of Jersey Shore...

[ktrain]

King, I'd ask you what the heck you were trying to say in your last post, but I really don't give a crap.

[kingaling42]

Ok Traina.. I hear ya..

[ktrain]

Good guess, but my name isn't on the website. I hadn't thought until now of the coincidence of Harry's last name.

[kingaling42]

Just a coincidence eh.. must not be too "involved" if you're not on the website.. Maybe next year Bob will help you be more of an integral part of the team..

I do find it hilarious that all your ragging on UNCA about facilities, budgets in regards to other D-1 programs is pretty much a mirror image of the conditions of St. Anthony's and it's same struggle to raise monies & keep programs going as well.. It helps to have a coach that's been there 35 years & it's clear your affinity toward our graduating senior..

Again, life is full of choices and all of us who attended UNCA had a choice- somewhere along your vicarious UNCA experience discontent/hatred set in with you- question is why are fighting someone else's fight if you have no real connection to UNCA??

[ktrain]

You assume that only people whose name is on the website are important to the school.

Hilarious????? I think the difference in success between the Friars and the Bulldogs is instructive. You constantly complain that you are working from a disadvantage, and that B has done such a great job given the scarcity of funds with which he has to work. St. Anthony has no weight room, no money, is in danger of closing down from year to year, and until 7 years ago had a dilapidated bingo hall as its practice facility. Despite all that, Coach Hurley manages to win championships (not the occasional regular season title.)

I'm not fighting anybody's fight. At the beginning of this thread, I simply stated that the players should be fed better. Hell, the Friars eat better on the road, and they have zero funds!!!!

If anybody on this site wants to see how a real coach runs a real program, check out the DVD The Street Stops Here.

[kingaling42]

Are you going to dispute the fact that its a little easier to get kids in bad situations from New Jersey or New York to play HS ball in Jersey City than it is to find kids that want to play D1 college ball in Asheville?? Especially given Hurley's reputation, tenure, & HOF credentials.. But don't compare a HS program to UNCA, that's not even the same fight..

Coach B is no Bob Hurley- but you are fighting another person's fight as you have no other interest in UNCA..

I would say that I'm impressed by the development of Hurley's players- but I've only seen 3 in person & 1 of them didn't impress me- the other 2 are in the NBA but they would've been in the league regardless..

[ktrain]

Okay, moron. Who are the other two? Hurley and Rivers? The one who didn't impress you might have done so had he been utilized correctly. We'll never know, though.

[UNCA Alum]

St. Anthony's also basically gets their pick out of some of the best high school basketball talent in the country up there in the Jersey City area. I think Coach Hurley is a great coach that deserves to be in the Hall of Fame and no point in trying to compare Coach B to him, but I think Coach B would do a little better as well if he got say 75% of the best prospects in NC each year.



He's arguably the greatest high school coach of all time and The Miracle at St Anthony is a fantastic read... but most coaches would win with Rhoderick Rhodes, Terry Dehere, Hurley Brothers, dude at Villanova, Tyshawn Taylor, Elijah Cook (? left handed PG from St Johns) etc at the high school level. And I think trying to compare UNCA to St. Anthony's is pretty stupid.

And obviously you have been talking to players.

Edit: Had to go grab a pizza in the middle of this post. See that King already made some similar points.
Edit #2: Remembered two more players.

[ktrain]

You have no idea what goes on up here in the Jersey City area. St. Pat's grabs a lot of talent, too. There's a reason why they want to come here. Coach Hurley knows what to do with the players he gets. You guys are just blind.

Keep on resorting to a zone when you're up by 2 with 17 seconds left.

By the way, King, Hurley has more than HOF credentials. He's being inducted this summer. And I'm sure that Sean will be devastated to learn that a UNCA walk-on wasn't impressed by his play, despite the fact that he finished his career as the second all-time 3-point shooter in Asheville history. Just imagine what he could have done if he had a real coach.....

[UNCA Alum]

What % of starters at St. Anthonys eventually go on to a division one scholarship over the last ten years?

85%?


There are other schools up there, but hell St. Patrick had some 5'4" white kid starting for them this year that was flat out terrible.

dude just three years ago yall had four guards going to Rutgers, Pitt, Nova and Kansas to go along with three other D-1 prospects.

[ktrain]

The 5'4" kid was the coach's son. St. Pat's graduated Kyrie Irving, who's going to Duke. Strickland at North Carolina graduate last year. They also have the #1 senior this year in Gilchrist. No shortage of talent there.

I'm glad you brought up the St. Anthony talent, though. Here's who Sean played with his senior year:
Travon Woodall (Pittsburgh{
Tyshaun Taylor (Kansas)
Chris Gaston (Fordham)
A.J. Rogers (St. Joseph's)
Miles Beatty (George Washington)
Dominic Cheek (Villanova)
Jio Fontan (USC)
Mike Rosario (Rutgers)

Many of these guys weren't automatic scholarships, though. They were raw talent that Hurley developed. Still, the fact that Sean started ahead of the likes of Gaston, Cheek, Rosario, and Beatty should show you the type of talent he was. And the opportunity that B missed when he faile to utilize him correctly.

[UNCA Alum]

Who did Sean choose UNCA over? And how many points did he average at St. Anthonys?

He averaged 11 as a junior and 10 as a senior at UNCA. He was a solid player off the bench his first two years behind some really good guards. He had a good career. I really don't know what there is to complain about.

[UNCA Alum]

Many of these guys weren't automatic scholarships, though. They were raw talent that Hurley developed. Still, the fact that Sean started ahead of the likes of Gaston, Cheek, Rosario, and Beatty should show you the type of talent he was. And the opportunity that B missed when he faile to utilize him correctly.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Cheek would have been a freshman, Rosario and Gaston sophomores when Sean was a senior.

[kingaling42]

Hurley only developed him enough to average 8 points- did I miss something?? You act as if he was putting up huge numbers in HS & as if something changed once he came to UNCA... Maybe he got used to not being the main guy in HS & that stayed with him while at UNCA, but let's face it- he has one skill in shooting the basketball- the great Bob Hurley & all of the involved folks such as yourself in Jersey City didn't aid in developing his skill set beyond that one dimension- why would you think that Coach B or any college coach would be responsible for doing more as you hold Hurley in such high regards.. HS is where most players are developed from talent to fundamentals anyway..

Bottom line is he obviously liked Coach B & UNCA enough to sign a NLI out of St. Anthony's & he played for roughly 2.5 years (2 of those as a role player because he wasn't going to start over KJ or Smithson or Vincent or Donovan or Reid) before either figuring out that he should have gone elsewhere or whatever his discontent was about..

I will also say that if any player is unhappy with the style of play at UNCA then they really should be able to scout UNCA before committing & see how similar players with similar skills and or size are utilized- if he could not see how other players at UNCA his senior & junior years in HS were being utilized (i.e. Rush, Collington, McCullough, Holmes- none of which have his limited skill set of being a perimeter shooter alone- Rush was most similar IMO but he didn't mind putting the ball on the floor either- but Steven transfered before Sean's senior year in HS and he had a green light to shoot in many games- shouldn't Sean have taken that into consideration??) If not, maybe he's not as smart as you've given him credit for.. When a coach has been at a program for as long as Eddie has been- there's a style of play that people should be able to figure out fairly easily- especially if the kid has good advisors involved in his decision making process for his college choice out of HS- maybe he didn't have all these helpful people such as yourself helping him evaluate the style factors.. Hell- a quick internet search would have shown that Coach B has never while at UNCA featured a pure shooter in his offense- the scorers tend to have several abilities offensively or they're tall which doesn't apply...

I'm not wasting my time talking about a guy that's done at UNCA & no disrespect intended- but I'm also not going to have you pretend he was a world beater & that the only reason he didn't do so much more is the way he was utilized.. he was utilized the way he had to be, especially this past year- when he's making shots let him play, when he's struggling- sit his a$$ down because he's one dimensional and if he's not doing that one thing- he's hurting your team! At some point doesn't any player in 4 years with all the various drills, 3 man & individual workouts, etc.. have some responsibility to take it upon themself to improve their different skills??

So the problem I did have as I've stated before is that if he was unhappy last December when he quit on his team (Don't act like it some secret for the team- all of his teammates knew he quit & then came back last December- I don't know why you don't think that was a factor in many things the past 2 seasons)- so if he was unhappy then he should have either left or made another decision coming out of HS or even early on at UNCA- I am glad he stayed & finished his career at UNCA & we've all commented on how we think he played hard & smart & gave the program pretty much his all- but I'm not going to act like he should've ever been in any all BSC category type of player either as you're inferring- he only developed that one skill in HS for the great Bob Hurley & never developed any other skills while at UNCA.. So he was not capable of taking over any games- his ball handling and slashing skills, or lack thereof limited his ability to serve in that role- but there again we've argued all of this before- isn't it easier to just agree to disagree??

I'd agree with Alum, the man had choices I presume and he has to live with the one he made, you or the players whining about petty little factors like a 6" sandwich seems pointless and to me illustrates exactly how soft some of them are- like Alum said at some point it would benefit these young men to take responsibility for their actions- sooner or later they will have to do that..

I'm also curious as to what other D1 offers were out there when he came out of St. Anthony's & why he did choose UNCA??

[ktrain]

King, if you don't want to waste your time talking about somebody who's done at UNCA, then you shouldn't have brought him into this thread with your snide comment. I've never said or intimated that he was a world beater. What's done is done. Enough said.

If I need a good laugh next season, I'll tune into your posts about how the team lacks toughness and isn't getting senior leadership from JW and Stubbs.


Alum: I apologize for subjecting you and the other guys who post on the site to my back and forth with King. From what I understand, you were a good player, a guy who could score and clean the glass. I respect your criticisms and observations.

[kingaling42]

You brought up the development of players & your involvement at St. Anthony's.. I merely pointed out the lack of development for the only St. Anthony's player that attended UNCA- since you brought those factors into this thread- don't shift blame my way.. Especially if you can't handle the truth in my posts..

I could care less about your respect- it means nothing to me.. My teammates & other alums respect me & that's by far good enough for me